Comments on: What Is Organic Wine?

By: Sam Statham

Sam Statham — Thu, 05 Jan 2012 00:52:53 +0000

Guys, I am an organic vigneron and I support the ongoing use of copper and sulfur in the organic standards.
Why?
First of all they are not “toxic” when used correctly. Copper and sulfur are both vital nutrients for soil, plants, animals and humans. Both are non sytemic – ie they do not kill disease from the inside, like systemic fungicides. Reliance on systemics is like reliance on antibiotics in humans, rather than natural remedies and balanced mineral intake, fresh food etc. You can get copper and sulfur supplements for your own health. Farmers use both copper and sulfur on soil. Gypsum, which is calcium sulfate, is applied to soil at the rate of tonnes per hectare. Copper is much smaller doses but its only now occurring in excessive levels in old vineyard soils where its been used for centuries with poor technology and therefore overdoses of it. Today its used at only kilograms per hectare.
The downsides? Theres no denying that mites are adversely affected by sulfur and microbes on the leaf surface are affected by copper. Thats why both are usually used within a broader, biological program – we only use copper and sulfur in the first half of the growing season, then we move to microbial sprays, herbal, other minerals etc.
This contrasts with systemic fungicides. Last season in Australia fungicide resistance became widespread – ie they were used so much that they no longer worked and growers returned to using sulfur and other contact fungicides that dont suffer from resistance because they are non systemic. So much systemic fungicde was used that Australia ran right out of stock mid season! If you spray systemic fungicides 14 times in a season, how can you be sure that there are no residues in the fruit? Chemical residues not only affect the wine fermentation but may break down into more toxic compounds thus affecting consumers.
If you take a purist approach and ban copper and sulfur, rather than listing them as approved, but “restricted” organic inputs, you basically kill off organic grape growing and consumers all end up with no way to avoid, with certainty (certification), these residues.
You can be a small, boutique, “sustainable” grower and choose not to get certified in order to keep your chemical options open. You can also say organic methods dont work – if you have tried them. But there no need to get on this site and bag out organic farming. We are offering consumers something that is a better option than no certification.

By: eco-friendly friday | Studio 1948 Weddings

eco-friendly friday | Studio 1948 Weddings — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 23:56:51 +0000

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By: Bert

Bert — Sat, 06 Nov 2010 13:40:08 +0000

“Organic until something happens” – looks like a familiar quote. And yes it is practical, unless otherwise an effective organic farm plan is in place. Sometimes, suddenly the plants gets infected with some insects or whatever that may destroy it and no natural antidote is available, you will simply be forced to use pesticides or loose the whole cropping. Maybe if the technologies will be more established and the options wil be more defined we can go for pure organic farming.

By: Larry

Larry — Fri, 18 Jun 2010 17:44:08 +0000

Adam:

This represents the fungicide usage pattern for virtually all organic and BD growers in rainy climates in Europe, the US and New Zealand.

Direct from the Domaine Huet website.

Results Page

“After 10 years of experience, I find the results achieved to be extremely encouraging. Having applied the method described (Biodynamics) above to our vines, we find that they are in perfect health, they do not suffer from mildew, nor oidium, nor mites or vine pests and this without using any chemicals.”

Vinification Page

“The only products we use to protect the vines are the Bordeaux mixture (made by adding slaked lime to a copper sulfate Soilution), sulphur powder, and plant-based preparations such as horsetail, nettle and yarrow.”

http://www.huet-echansonne.com/MaisonHuet/MaisonHuet_vinif.php?LangueSite=EN

On one page their vines are perfectly healthy with no disease using no fungicides. On another page they claim they use “only” copper and sulfur for disease protection. Well, what else does one need?

I think its time that you changed your definitions of “Vineyard Practices”.

Or you risk loosing credibility.

Larry

By: Tony Coturri

Tony Coturri — Wed, 16 Jun 2010 16:09:42 +0000

Let’s do away with all this verbiage and let each producer of any food product from the farmer, cheese maker, winemaker, butcher, baker to the restaurateur and all not mentioned state exactly what they are putting into their products and let the consumer decide what they want. The producer can defend and explain what they are doing. But full disclosure must be made.

By: Dr. Steiner

Dr. Steiner — Sat, 12 Jun 2010 22:10:01 +0000

Secondly,

You frame the debate earlier on this page using the old, hyperbolic, false dichotomy of organic versus conventional. Do you really believe this? There are literally hundreds of small, family owned and operated wineries around the country that use careful, sustainable practices and are gentle stewards of their land and are not organic. These producers need not be grouped into your all-inclusive evil conventional category. In fact I think Larry makes the case that sustainable growers just might be as safe if not safer than those certified organic growers who are spraying heavy metals. Perhaps what you are describing should be termed mass-produced or industrial. Please do not disparage the non-organic small farmer.

By: Dr. Steiner

Dr. Steiner — Sat, 12 Jun 2010 21:58:54 +0000

Adam,

Its great you responded to Larry and that you’re open to posting a piece on sulfur and copper spraying – that’s all well and good.
But as the leading blog on organic viticulture and winemaking shouldn’t you be leading the way here? Your boiler-plate definition is flat out false and should be clarified. Do you disagree Adam? Do certified organic growers of wine grapes spray pesticides or not? You may think this is a bothersome detail that you’ll address when you (yawn) feel the energy to do so…but I’m a grape grower and a winemaker – and I like to think that the appeal of small artisanal wine producers is that we are presenting a sincere and honest product. What you’re practicing is good old fashioned corporate USA consumer fraud – plain and simple. If you disagree please respond and state your case which you have not clearly done.

By: Adam Morganstern

Adam Morganstern — Tue, 08 Jun 2010 13:42:25 +0000

Sorry things aren’t done to your liking or on your timetable here Dr. Steiner. I responded to Larry, both here in the comments and by email, and even invited him to do an article detailing his point of view. As I stated previously, I do think the Organic Wine Journal would benefit from a piece on copper and sulphur spraying and that will be forthcoming. If we see a reason to change our basic primer on organic wine after that we will do so.

By: Dr. Steiner

Dr. Steiner — Tue, 08 Jun 2010 03:12:34 +0000

“We have no problem with people expressing different views here.”

Really?

What happened to my last post? The heading says 24 responses but only 14 posts are shown.

You did not respond to Larry’s request to remove the misleading information in the heading. Why the obfuscation?

By: Dr. Steiner

Dr. Steiner — Sun, 06 Jun 2010 04:22:44 +0000

FYI – pesticides is a term technically used to describe any material used to control pests – both plant and animal. Copper, sulfur and mineral oil are all pesticides and are all approved for organic production. None of which by the way, are used in their natural state